Hello,
I propose we go the commité route for the project management, with 2 senior devs & 2 managers.
One senior dev for linux One for AOS
A rescource manager
And finally one manager who makes the final calls based on feedback of the other 3.
Kind regards
This proposal gets my vote.
Kind regards Rincewynd Peter Molenaar
-----Original Message----- From: openoffice-os4-admin@samfundet.no [mailto:openoffice-os4-admin@samfundet.no] On Behalf Of Christophe Ochal Sent: Saturday, January 08, 2005 5:22 PM To: openoffice-os4@samfundet.no Subject: [OO.org-OS4] Management
Hello,
I propose we go the commité route for the project management, with 2 senior devs & 2 managers.
One senior dev for linux One for AOS
A rescource manager
And finally one manager who makes the final calls based on feedback of the other 3.
Kind regards
Hello,
I propose we go the commité route for the project management, with 2 senior devs & 2 managers.
One senior dev for linux One for AOS
A rescource manager
And finally one manager who makes the final calls based on feedback of the other 3.
Hi! Well, I am far to busy to follow your discussion as the whole, but I'd like to add my two cents here. And before I go on, can anyone please let me know, why there is a need to support Linux here ? Let me introduce myself, before I go on. I had an Amiga sales company back in Austria until the last 6 month ago, I have some experience in SW so far, and I moved to the US in July to built up the SW R&D department for our (Austrian) company building Casino games. I lead a small SW department here (incl. SW Test) , so I have some experience on what I'd like to add here.
Anyway, before we talk about managment (which is a word I do not really like), we should talk about functional entitys, define the responsibilities and try to find people taking over those responsibilities. Afterwards, we make some sort of internal applications for these jobs and pick (vote) for the best candidate.
OK, that's how it goes:
Tools development, build process engineering: Responsible for getting the built process running incl. SVN (is this decision made yet ?), Phyton, compiler and configurations. (maintenaince of make files, not in detail, but as a whole) Also responsible for SVN synchronisation and built managmanet (daily builts, etc) - One Lead Programmer ( = Built engineer) + additional programmers/maintainers (matter of discussion)
Application programming: - Lead programmer Application Responsible for the application in total. Give technical directions and has a overview over the whole code. Is also responsible on module integration. Is also responsible to work out detailed timetables for component development and integration - Senior programmers / SW modules lead position on compontents yet to identify in the package - Component programmers programmers assigned to a component to implement with a senior programmer
SW Test: - Lead SW Tester Works out test plans and component test. Sets up SW Test tools (e.g. Bugzilla, etc). Defines timetables for component testing - SW Tester Works with test plans and implements component testing. Assigns bug reports too SW engineers. Also implements test frameworks (what ever this is, e.g. cppunit). Should have programming skills.
PjM (Projectmanagment) - Keeps track of seperate modules and synchronises them. Works close with SW Lead / SW Test Lead. PjM can have multiple "liason engineers" to communication with SW development
Also, various support positions: Web Site maintenance, graphics (logo), public communication, etc.
So, before we go on, we should work out this areas in detail, a smaller group should identify the amount of people required for each area. We should put this organisation chart on a (private) website, so everybody can apply to one of the positions of interesst and it is visible to everybody who is doing what. It's important to have a good, focused communication and avoid overhead. Therefore, a clear responsibility who is doing what and how this person can be reached is important.
Sorry, was a bit long, but I hope you might find the one or other thought usefull to set up an effective team. I am pretty sure I missed some things here, so if you have things to add, please go ahead.
thx & ciao Jürgen
Hello Jürgen
On 08/01/2005, you wrote:
Hello,
I propose we go the commité route for the project management, with 2 senior devs & 2 managers.
One senior dev for linux One for AOS
A rescource manager
And finally one manager who makes the final calls based on feedback of the other 3.
Hi! Well, I am far to busy to follow your discussion as the whole, but I'd like to add my two cents here. And before I go on, can anyone please let me know, why there is a need to support Linux here ?
We don't need linux support, but we do need someone fairly well aquinted with linux to help guide the porting, that can explain to the others what this & that bit do on linux, and offer help in working arround things not possible in AOS
Let me introduce myself, before I go on. I had an Amiga sales company back in Austria until the last 6 month ago, I have some experience in SW so far, and I moved to the US in July to built up the SW R&D department for our (Austrian) company building Casino games. I lead a small SW department here (incl. SW Test) , so I have some experience on what I'd like to add here.
Anyway, before we talk about managment (which is a word I do not really like), we should talk about functional entitys, define the responsibilities and try to find people taking over those responsibilities. Afterwards, we make some sort of internal applications for these jobs and pick (vote) for the best candidate.
You just described management ;)
OK, that's how it goes:
Tools development, build process engineering: Responsible for getting the built process running incl. SVN (is this decision made yet ?), Phyton, compiler and configurations. (maintenaince of make files, not in detail, but as a whole) Also responsible for SVN synchronisation and built managmanet (daily builts, etc)
- One Lead Programmer ( = Built engineer)
- additional programmers/maintainers (matter of discussion)
Application programming:
- Lead programmer Application Responsible for the application in total. Give technical directions and has a overview over the whole code. Is also responsible on module integration. Is also responsible to work out detailed timetables for component development and integration
- Senior programmers / SW modules lead position on compontents yet to identify in the package
- Component programmers programmers assigned to a component to implement with a senior programmer
SW Test:
- Lead SW Tester Works out test plans and component test. Sets up SW Test tools (e.g. Bugzilla, etc). Defines timetables for component testing
- SW Tester Works with test plans and implements component testing. Assigns bug reports too SW engineers. Also implements test frameworks (what ever this is, e.g. cppunit). Should have programming skills.
PjM (Projectmanagment) - Keeps track of seperate modules and synchronises them. Works close with SW Lead / SW Test Lead. PjM can have multiple "liason engineers" to communication with SW development
Also, various support positions: Web Site maintenance, graphics (logo), public communication, etc.
Good list, let's see how the others reply :)
So, before we go on, we should work out this areas in detail, a smaller group should identify the amount of people required for each area. We should put this organisation chart on a (private) website, so everybody can apply to one of the positions of interesst and it is visible to everybody who is doing what. It's important to have a good, focused communication and avoid overhead. Therefore, a clear responsibility who is doing what and how this person can be reached is important.
I agree, that's actually what i'm trying to get us to achieve, organisation, your proposition is more then welcome :)
Sorry, was a bit long, but I hope you might find the one or other thought usefull to set up an effective team. I am pretty sure I missed some things here, so if you have things to add, please go ahead.
Feedback is always good :)
Regards
We don't need linux support, but we do need someone fairly well aquinted with linux to help guide the porting, that can explain to the others what this & that bit do on linux, and offer help in working arround things not possible in AOS
I'd propose this is the job of the leas programmer. He/She should have some skills in understanding Linux code. I'd expect a person capable of beeing a lead programmer to understand alien code, anyway. A specialized function like a "Linux consultant" would fit here, I think.
Anyway, before we talk about managment (which is a word I do not really like), we should talk about functional entitys, define the responsibilities and try to find people taking over those responsibilities. Afterwards, we make some sort of internal applications for these jobs and pick (vote) for the best candidate.
You just described management ;)
I know :) But I do not consider myself a manager, simply because managers are often far off the details or the basic understanding (which is IMO often the case in SW...sorry to say that...but maybe I am wrong and I meet the wrong people ;) Don't take this too serious, I know it could also be the other way round...
I agree, that's actually what i'm trying to get us to achieve, organisation, your proposition is more then welcome :)
Yes, and I guess you're doing a good job already. I just didn't have time to read the whole bunch of emails since two days...(damn, now I sound like a manager ;)
Sorry, was a bit long, but I hope you might find the one or other thought usefull to set up an effective team. I am pretty sure I missed some things here, so if you have things to add, please go ahead.
Feedback is always good :)
Thanx. I'd like see the current organisation broken into more details. How would you (we ?) do that. I mean, what would be the next step. Are you disccussing these things on IRC ?
BTW: the aw-de devsite. This is completely open, ATM. Wouldn't it make sence to lock it down to members only, with maybe some public forum(s) ? Also, should the main communication be done on this mailing list or more on the web based board (which I would prefer) - simply because as soon as components are defined, it might make sence, people in one group (if we establish something like that) can discuss things locally, instead of filling up this mailing list with details.
E.g. a project (e.g. a component, but also establishing the teams) could be discussed there in detail and it is easier to just select the specific project. For example, for me it's a bit hard to follow, if/how things organised by walking thru all emails and filter just the ones covering organisation. There is a thread on an already with HR. I see organisation as one component already.
cheers Jürgen
Hello Jürgen
On 08/01/2005, you wrote:
We don't need linux support, but we do need someone fairly well aquinted with linux to help guide the porting, that can explain to the others what this & that bit do on linux, and offer help in working arround things not possible in AOS
I'd propose this is the job of the leas programmer. He/She should have some skills in understanding Linux code. I'd expect a person capable of beeing a lead programmer to understand alien code, anyway. A specialized function like a "Linux consultant" would fit here, I think.
Good proposition, noted
Anyway, before we talk about managment (which is a word I do not really like), we should talk about functional entitys, define the responsibilities and try to find people taking over those responsibilities. Afterwards, we make some sort of internal applications for these jobs and pick (vote) for the best candidate.
You just described management ;)
I know :) But I do not consider myself a manager, simply because managers are often far off the details or the basic understanding (which is IMO often the case in SW...sorry to say that...but maybe I am wrong and I meet the wrong people ;) Don't take this too serious, I know it could also be the other way round...
I don't consider myself to be a manager myself, but i want to keep the group focussed on the task at hand and for that someone has to take initiative into getting things moving.
EntilZha got the ball rolling, my goal is to keep it rolling in the right direction
I agree, that's actually what i'm trying to get us to achieve, organisation, your proposition is more then welcome :)
Yes, and I guess you're doing a good job already. I just didn't have time to read the whole bunch of emails since two days...(damn, now I sound like a manager ;)
I don't know if i'm doing a fine job or not, i'm not getting flames & insults yet so i guess i'm a poor manager :P hehe j/k
Sorry, was a bit long, but I hope you might find the one or other thought usefull to set up an effective team. I am pretty sure I missed some things here, so if you have things to add, please go ahead.
Feedback is always good :)
Thanx. I'd like see the current organisation broken into more details. How would you (we ?) do that. I mean, what would be the next step. Are you disccussing these things on IRC ?
With a group this big organising an IRC session might pose a time zone related problems, basicly the mailinglist should be more then enough to get to first base (in other words, get organised enough)
BTW: the aw-de devsite. This is completely open, ATM. Wouldn't it make sence to lock it down to members only, with maybe some public forum(s) ? Also, should the main communication be done on this mailing list or more on the web based board (which I would prefer) - simply because as soon as components are defined, it might make sence, people in one group (if we establish something like that) can discuss things locally, instead of filling up this mailing list with details.
The forums should be locked on amigadev.amigaworld.net for the time being, lets focuss discussions on the mailinglist so that it's easy to follow for everyone & we don't have to check 2 or 3 sites & a ml to get the whole picture.
I could easilly change them to members of the team only when time comes & presents the need. The forum was opened to shift discussions from aw.net towards amigadev, now that we have a ml they are someone rebundant.
E.g. a project (e.g. a component, but also establishing the teams) could be discussed there in detail and it is easier to just select the specific project. For example, for me it's a bit hard to follow, if/how things organised by walking thru all emails and filter just the ones covering organisation. There is a thread on an already with HR. I see organisation as one component already.
Once we are organised, we will have a general idea of where we want to go & what tools we use.
Mark sent a very good mail & proposal
Regards
Christophe Ochal wrote:
Thanx. I'd like see the current organisation broken into more details. How would you (we ?) do that. I mean, what would be the next step. Are you disccussing these things on IRC ?
With a group this big organising an IRC session might pose a time zone related problems, basicly the mailinglist should be more then enough to get to first base (in other words, get organised enough)
The excact same problem exist with mailing lists.
At work, we see mostly benefits from working much with people in the US, Australia and Japan. If they find a bug and report it to us before they leave in the evening, we've typically fixed it before they get back in the morning.
But if you want to have a proper debate around something, the time from you saying something and me replying can be pretty long. More than a couple of iterations then becomes impossible.
So if there is an IRC session _planned well ahead_ (we could for instance say that two times each day we discuss for half an hour, most people should then be able to make it to more than half the discussions), and someone is _responsible_ for compacting the IRC logs into general ideas (for further discussion), seemingly agreed upon strategies (to be voted over in the next session) and voting results, we should get a lot more benefit from that than just random thoughts in an email.
If the topics are flagged ahead of the sessions, people can choose to ignore things they don't have that much to say about.
I once again refer to the Mars Trilogy, it's one of the best books on ANY subject I've ever read :-P
Hello Ole-Egil
On 08/01/2005, you wrote:
Christophe Ochal wrote:
Thanx. I'd like see the current organisation broken into more details. How would you (we ?) do that. I mean, what would be the next step. Are you disccussing these things on IRC ?
With a group this big organising an IRC session might pose a time zone related problems, basicly the mailinglist should be more then enough to get to first base (in other words, get organised enough)
The excact same problem exist with mailing lists.
True
<snip>
But if you want to have a proper debate around something, the time from you saying something and me replying can be pretty long. More than a couple of iterations then becomes impossible.
That's true, especially with volenteer projects such as these
So if there is an IRC session _planned well ahead_ (we could for instance say that two times each day we discuss for half an hour, most people should then be able to make it to more than half the discussions), and someone is _responsible_ for compacting the IRC logs into general ideas (for further discussion), seemingly agreed upon strategies (to be voted over in the next session) and voting results, we should get a lot more benefit from that than just random thoughts in an email.
Yep, that's why we need to get _organised_ for this first :)
If the topics are flagged ahead of the sessions, people can choose to ignore things they don't have that much to say about.
True
I once again refer to the Mars Trilogy, it's one of the best books on ANY subject I've ever read :-P
I might rent it at the library some day, but not the first coming weeks, got enough at my hands already ;)
Regards
Christophe Ochal wrote:
Hello Ole-Egil
I typically forget this, so: Hi :-) I think I need to put something about lack of manners in my sig ;-) It's just that I tend to see email as a continous stream of messages, not as a formal occasion each time :-) Any email from me from this point should be considered to say "Hi" at one of the top lines :-P
So if there is an IRC session _planned well ahead_ (we could for instance say that two times each day we discuss for half an hour, most people should then be able to make it to more than half the discussions), and someone is _responsible_ for compacting the IRC logs into general ideas (for further discussion), seemingly agreed upon strategies (to be voted over in the next session) and voting results, we should get a lot more benefit from that than just random thoughts in an email.
Yep, that's why we need to get _organised_ for this first :)
I don't think we need to be organised BEFORE we do brain storming ;-)
I once again refer to the Mars Trilogy, it's one of the best books on ANY subject I've ever read :-P
I might rent it at the library some day, but not the first coming weeks, got enough at my hands already ;)
You only need to read the third one, Blue Mars. There's enough backwards references at the start of each chapter that you'll get going immediately :-P
On a completely different note (please don't reply about it here...): I'm now operational with SVN, HEAD from anoncvs.openoffice.org is checked in (need to tag the initial import of openoffice itself, though. But I can do that at any point in time since I know the revision number I need to reference).
If anyone wants to have a look and see what you CAN do with a typical SVN setup, feel free to browse around http://84.234.219.218/repos/ Send questions you might have about how it works in private emails.
It's been a useful excercise for me, as I might end up working on unix servers at work within a few months. The number of Unix gurus is slowly diminishing :-P
Ole-Egil
Christophe Ochal wrote:
Thanx. I'd like see the current organisation broken into more details. How would you (we ?) do that. I mean, what would be the next step. Are you disccussing these things on IRC ?
With a group this big organising an IRC session might pose a time zone related problems, basicly the mailinglist should be more then enough to get to first base (in other words, get organised enough)
The excact same problem exist with mailing lists.
At work, we see mostly benefits from working much with people in the US, Australia and Japan. If they find a bug and report it to us before they leave in the evening, we've typically fixed it before they get back in the morning.
Same here, but we have something like video conferencing ;) Makes me getting into the office before/around 8:00 am, though ;)
So if there is an IRC session _planned well ahead_ (we could for
I support this idea! IRC 'Meetings' should be well organized an allow an interactive discussion, while ML and/or web forums (fora ?) don't.
BTW: I would vote for an initial meeting to trigger the details and establish the organisation ASAP. As soon we have something like that, we can assign 'work packages' and track them (e.g. CVS/Sourceforge came up, etc).
Christophe Ochal wrote:
So, before we go on, we should work out this areas in detail, a smaller group should identify the amount of people required for each area. We should put this organisation chart on a (private) website, so everybody can apply to one of the positions of interesst and it is visible to everybody who is doing what. It's important to have a good, focused communication and avoid overhead. Therefore, a clear responsibility who is doing what and how this person can be reached is important.
I agree, that's actually what i'm trying to get us to achieve, organisation, your proposition is more then welcome :)
OT: If you haven't already, you should read the Mars trilogy, by Kim Stanley Robinson. It's science fiction, but the man manages to pull off length pieces on plausible world politics, sociology, technology etc in the time period 60-200 years from now.
There's this huge piece of book three that is very relevant here :-)
OK, Forget about my other mail, I see you've set up these things already.
If you keep up this performance, I have no doubt, this project will be a success.
cheers Jürgen
Hello Christophe
On 08/01/05, you wrote:
Hello,
I propose we go the commité route for the project management, with 2 senior devs & 2 managers.
One senior dev for linux One for AOS
A rescource manager
And finally one manager who makes the final calls based on feedback of the other 3.
Kind regards
Possible Managers / Commité.
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From Amigaworld.net forums http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=9451&forum=15...
Page 1 EntilZha **Note** Thank you to the man himself, who started this all, but he doesn`t want management position.
Page 5 anarchic_teapot (Rose) I'm a manager, but I've never managed a programming project in my life (mind you, that never stopped the people I used to work with ). If you get sufficiently desperate... **Note** The big stick. :)
Page 7 wegster @thread RE: Project Management I've done this before, in 'real life' as well as in an online community with 20-40 active developers). It's not overwhelmingly glorious work, always takes more time than you expect it to (heh, sort of exactly like most coding projects! **Note** The code man.
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From this mailing list https://lists.samfundet.no/mailman/listinfo/openoffice-os4
From Ochal Christophe (Amon_Re) Date Fri, 7 Jan 2005 12:48:08 +0100 Subject [OO.org-OS4] Status update Manager: Me (until someone more qualified comes along) **Note** Busy already.
From Mark bond Date 08 Jan 2005 18:28:09 +0000 Subject [OO.org-OS4] Project Management I'll probably regret this, but I'll put myself forward to HELP with the project management: **Note** No regrets - No surrender.
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Now if more souls would like to offer there management services please say so on this list. I suggest a Subject [OO.org-OS4] Management Offer.
As it is now weekend and many capable management types are not at work or computer we should wait till end Monday and then vote.
Amon_Re could then set up voting on a forum an we could then finalize management, and get on with it.
Regards, Tim (T_Power)
Now if more souls would like to offer there management services please say so on this list. I suggest a Subject [OO.org-OS4] Management Offer.
Agreed. I would like to apply...but not alone. More like an Assistent to Managment or consultant. I don't have time for handling this, but I'd like to help.
As it is now weekend and many capable management types are not at work or computer we should wait till end Monday and then vote.
Amon_Re could then set up voting on a forum an we could then finalize management, and get on with it.
Jürgen
-
Christophe Ochal -
Jürgen Schober -
Ole-Egil Hvitmyren -
Peter Molenaar -
Timothy Cameron